forest light

Sunday, April 30, 2006

God is an outdated concept and Rationality is humanity's salvation

I am intrigued about the existentialist thing. (Existentialism = chaos.) The dictionary says existentialism means that there is no coherent criteria that serves as man’s basis of free choice, and that individual essence determines existence, and the universe is absurd. As a practical matter existentialism is chaos and therefore needs to be balanced with a belief in God, so I see how that makes yin yang sense. So in the beginning, God was a concept by which to structure a chaotic civilization. The concept of God gave form to the void, and it balanced life’s chaos. But the concept of God is no longer useful because humans are too knowledgeable for that now. Rationality is humanity’s new salvation. If we continue to believe in the buggy-whip of God, our society will fall into chaos and here’s why: Believing in God defines something that can’t be defined yet. Every religious teacher acknowledges that certainty in God comes down to faith. Faith is a belief that is not based on proof. By accepting concepts that are not based on proof, there’s no standard for what is real. Is Allah real? Are the forty virgins in heaven real? As a believer in God are you telling me that the thing you can’t prove is real, but the thing they can’t prove is false? That’s chaos! Belief in God is leading us to chaos. Maybe God is real, we can’t say for sure. But by pretending (aka having faith) that something that cannot be proven is real, we are tolerating a huge disconnect. The concept of God no longer fills the void with something that makes sense like it used to. The concept of God now creates a void by substituting the un-provable for truth. The good news is that Rationality (Reason) acknowledges that there are still wonderful and amazing things out there to discover – maybe that a God created the universe in six days. Reason seeks to discover the unknown and understand it. Most importantly, Reason provides a universal framework on which to build the rest of humanity. If we could get rid of faith, we’d all have something in common and that sounds… heavenly.

posted by light in the forest @ 10:15 PM  

14 Comments:

  • At 7:44 AM, Blogger sparringK9 said…

    /bark bark bark

    nicely stated. imagine the horror of reading the account of the spanish capturing the great Incan sun God, whose army outnumbered the spaniards by 10-1. But the spanish prevailed because of the advantages of horses, advanced weaponry and ships with stored food and an organized political structure. yet as they hacked up native after native they gave that glory to God. I hated it. but i grew to make the distinction between what they attibuted it to, and what it really was.

    The interesting thing to me was that for all of history one thing prevailed over another -there was no moral authority to it...it was just how things developed. The universe does not make a value judgement -assisting one group and damnning another.

    its the reason i know I am in essence and existential dog, that i recognize and accept, no embrace, chaos. However, i chose with free will to seek God in a form that made sense to me. it is a difficult path. my brain is rebellious. my heart is open. it was Kiekegaard that bridged the gap for me: that thinking about God at all is a personal aesthetic choice.

    theres a great scene in the movie "contact" where the boyfriend of the atheist scientist answers her statement where she says something to the effect that if she cant see it or quantify it then it doesnt exisit. she says to believe in God she would need proof.

    and he says "did you love your father?' and she says of course and then he says "prove it"

    i think mystery is essential to me for a fuller life. i dont need to know absolutely anything and lately i am more and more willing to roll with a constantly shifting ground beneath me.

    seeking God is like a long term love affair. sometimes you are in it fully. somethimes it feels like a sham. like the sorrows and beauties around us all the time, i think it goes down the way its meant to and that i am just a little insignificant leaf floating in the wind until i light onto the ground and end up as fuel for the next round of living things to flourish.

    glad to have you aboard forest light. I am linking you up at sparringk9.

    /grrrrrrrrrrrrr

     

  • At 10:20 AM, Blogger Infinitesimal said…

    There is one flaw in your logic, Light,

    You cannot perceive what is real to me.
    Because you are you, not me.
    ergo,
    I cannot begin to tell you what is real, as I am not you.

    If I see you are green, but you tell me you are purple, i should believe you...it is your color after all, even if it is not the color that i perceive you to be.
    make sense?

    Alls i can do is live by example and teach by actions.

    keep posting, I have you bookmarked.

     

  • At 7:45 AM, Blogger light in the forest said…

    Awesome! good debate…K9 – It’s funny, we have so much agreement but our ‘stances’ (religious – agnostic) are so far apart.

    Yes, the universe does not make value judgments – but people do. Danger though - when you humor people who act on things that can’t be proven, by believing in things that you can’t prove either, you lead the world to chaos and despair. Rational thinking should be our guide in the 21st century but just because God can’t be proven doesn’t mean people should stop looking for that proof. The world needs a higher standard than an invisible magic creature called God.

    Jody Foster either could prove she loved her father, or she would realize by definition that she actually didn’t. But it could be proven or disproved on a rational level.

    People use beliefs based on myth to make value judgments and this subtracts from the quality of life for everybody. In ‘Contact’ if it weren’t Jody Foster’s agnosticism that Matthew was trying to turn into a belief in the mystical, but a militant Islamic scientist’s, would it be such a cute idea? “Hey, Osama – why should you be rational, we’re not!” Of course the Old Testament was written on the assertion that Jews were God’s chosen people. However, some clever power broker managed a hostile takeover on a piece of that religion by convincing a lot of people that Jesus was the actual Son of God. Are the Jews God’s chosen people? How can we be sure? Do we tolerate their magical pie in the sky because we have ours also? That’s crazy. A bunch of wrongs don’t make a right. It’s time to admit that nobody knows for sure and we all have in common that we are still searching for the answer. That’s rational.

    Most Americans believe that a God created the earth and humans, and that if man does not accept Jesus as his Savior, then he will burn in hell for eternity. That’s not rational.


    We are also in agreement in that mystery is essential for a fuller life. Why then do you take the most wonderful mystery in the history of the universe off line? The creation of man can’t be explained, so why should we group think ourselves into believing in God? Seek the answer? Yes. Rationality and Reason don’t cut the balls off truth; they don’t stop at what we know now. It is rational and reasonable to love the mystery like a God. People who are so inclined should scientifically search for answers to the mysteries and the rest of us should stop worshipping the sun and the magic-man in the sky.

    Ok – cut me to the quick – I love it!

    Infiniti…Hi! First I would like to send you some tulips because you are a girl after my own heart, and second I share your fascination with physicists and string theory. I loved your site and will visit you again soon. As far as your comment about differing perceptions…there are a gazillion things we will always agree on, but the things that we don’t, we must acknowledge that they are things that can’t be proven and should not be taken as fact. If you see me as green but I thought I was purple, then somebody might want to figure that out someday, but neither of us should claim an absolute. I don’t think there are still people who believe that the world is flat. In time we will determine whether I’m green or purple. (I think you’re right, I’m green.) I’d love to know more of where you are coming from…you can’t hurt my feelings.

     

  • At 8:37 PM, Blogger sparringK9 said…

    /bark bark bark

    forestlight:

    that begs the question then: who will define the nature of that higher standard? i would submit to you there would be divisive views all the same even in the absence of religious considerations. as far as invisible, energy is and so is gravity -we see the effect but not the "thing" so invisible is not a proof of inexsistance either.

    well the point in contact is that it is difficult to quantify these vaporous ways of knowing something and proving that you know it -not having the language yet to define such things that are known at the cellular level.

    he wasnt trying to convert her into a belief system he simply asked if she might only consider the possibility, and as i recall he loved her, supported her and ended up with her. so the two approaches were not mutually exclusive in life or love in this case. he was far from intolerant

    i wouldnt presume to say what most americans think and i would not sign off on the burning in hell thing if you dont submit either. i do believe in hell on earth. heres a great example: if you followed a commandment like say no fornication which is sex before marriage, you might avoid heartaches of all kind. will you go to hell because jesus damned you? no. more likely a hell of your own creation, sickness, unwanted pregnancy, being used and abandoned, etc. or maybe not -but if you could follow the commandment you can be assured to avoid that particular hell. is that a likely scenario> no our culture doesnt support it but the conceept remains intact with some merit whether you choose to follow it or not.

    mystery i like in all forms. the presence of one doesnt fill me up so that others would not be investigated as well. it isnt the oppression you imagine.

    as far as all of us deciding together to dispense with religion and go rational you will have an easier time with westerners. how you plan to get these others on board in particular funde-anything would be a post id love to read!

    /grrrrrrrrrrrrr

     

  • At 2:56 PM, Blogger Infinitesimal said…

    Took a semester of "Myth and Magic in Religion" class, you could be the substitute, Light.... the instructor shares your views.

    One thing that i cannot explain, that drew me from agnosticisim (SP?) was the shivers.

    Ever get the shivers for a great piece of music?
    for a baby touching you to connect?
    for a thought that you had, or a tone in your voice, or a statement made, by you or another, that just rang so true.... that you had to shiver?

    Shivers go up my spine at times of prayer... buddist, wiccan, whatever.... shivers is shivers. So once I started speaking to Christ, the shivers got REAL BIG!

    so to me, in my own perception of reality. I have proof.
    and yes, i was wearing a sweater! (wink)

    so procrastination complete, I must now write a paper that will ruin me.
    Oh it is sooo exciting.
    Cannot wait for that job delivering pizzas that is waiting for me when i am graduated!

    wish me luck, I am gonna need it!

     

  • At 8:35 PM, Blogger light in the forest said…

    As far as who will define the higher standard – we ‘all’ would. Just as we now all agree that the earth is round, not flat, and it spins around the sun instead of vice versa. To me it seems time to call BS on using a 2000-year-old book of short stories as a basis for major decisions that affect us. We can’t get funding to fully research other possibilities because of religious-based pressure from good Christians. Stem cell research is just one tiny example.

    If the bible is not The Actual Word of God, then it’s just a creation of man. Why then wouldn’t it be true that God was also just a creation of man? It’s not even my intention to disprove God or spirituality or ‘the shivers’, but people should WANT to investigate the phenomenon. Religious minds are not curious.

    The real answers I’m looking for will not be found in my lifetime. I would just like to see society recognize the fact that the Bible is bogus. Humanity is not wrapped up in a neat little box where you confess your sins, praise Jesus and go to gold-plated heaven when you die. So many people don’t seem to cherish the mystery of who we might be because they go to church every Sunday where it’s already figured for them. I know services are beautiful and uplifting, not oppressive, but the basis of the message is that the essence of spirituality relates to God as defined by storytellers that were basically cavemen or nomads. To me, that makes the world seem flat. Awe should be directed towards the future, not the past. Thank you for the debate! Respectfully,

     

  • At 2:14 AM, Blogger Infinitesimal said…

    Zecheria Sitchen wrote about 8 books in a series of non fiction outlying and proving that the old testement is bogus.
    I suggest: Genesis Revisited

    I have respect for the Agnostic over the Athiest because personally, I respect a spiritual hunger, and my understanding of atheism is that nothing exists except for the reality of things. Bones blood and body exist, but when you die, that's it... no residual energy.
    E=Mc squared simplified as i understand it is: Energy never dies.
    Einstein believed in God.
    So, if we accept that energy never dies (most athiests are interested in science (ergo, physics))
    How can athiests think that when you die, that's it?
    My friend Jon thinks that way. Once your body gives way, you disappear.
    I do not accept that as my own reality.

    Light, I am STILL working on that ever lovin paper of doom, and am so delerious from sleep depravation that I cannot make a further point. Perhaps I will visit you again after I have been blessed with deep sleep.
    But
    I dig what you say about being a ray of light.
    deeply dig it.
    check out Sitchen... if you do not laugh, he may blow your mind. (note his credentials too)

     

  • At 3:58 AM, Blogger Blue said…

    Forest,

    I'm enjoying the discussion here. If it is not too personal a question, what sets your inner being soaring?

    I don't identify as being any religion or nonreligious person. I just am. I feel energy from the ocean; when I am mentally, emotionally or physically tired, I am renewed by nature. I feel joy at the stars, and rainbows and butterflies. When my kids giggle - my energy levels soar.

    I think everyone has the need for energy transfer, some refer to the source of energy being transferred to them as God.

    I have a problem with dogma & doctrine - they are man made to an agenda, usually the subjagation of another.

    How is your energy renewed?

     

  • At 9:24 AM, Blogger sparringK9 said…

    /bark bark bark

    FL you said:

    "religious minds are not curious" and

    "Humanity is not wrapped up in a neat little box where you confess your sins, praise Jesus and go to gold-plated heaven when you die. So many people don’t seem to cherish the mystery of who we might be because they go to church every Sunday where it’s already figured for them"

    that is a serious broad broad youre painting with!!

    wholesale comdenation soes not fit the ideology you profess.

    /grrrrrrrrrrrr

     

  • At 9:25 AM, Blogger sparringK9 said…

    /bark bark bark

    er, that was "broad brush" i meant to type (these damn paws are so unweildy)

    /howl

     

  • At 8:50 PM, Blogger light in the forest said…

    Infini,
    Thanks for the book. I love that stuff. You make good points even in delirium. Good luck on your paper.

    Bluebolt,
    my inner being soaring? Energy renewed? Now that I think about it debate energizes me, and mosh-pit dancing, and good music, and campfires by the creek, and a few shots of tequila. Love your energy theory and such.

    K9,
    With all due respect - Let’s scrap! (But don’t eat me.) I think wholesale condemnation does fit my ideology because by my definition, the expression of strong disapproval is neither good, nor bad – it’s learning and experiencing, which I am currently suggesting are the purposes of life. I seriously struggle to understand religious views, and as hard as I try, I can’t find relevance in the bible or God for that matter. Not to piecemeal the whole text, but the writer of Genesis thought the moon was a nightlight. “God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser to govern the night.” (Genesis 1:16) You’d think God might have inspired the text a little more, Him being the ultimate Creator and all. Oh well, so the bible is not the direct word of God but a metaphor created by man? So why don’t we supplement our summer reading and worship the poet Robert Frost, or Shakespeare, or Mark Twain? Need someone old? How about Socrates?

    RELIGION IS NO LONGER GOOD because it is preventing the betterment of our society. Religious tendencies are stifling the bright minds needed for the improvement of life in the 21st century.

    Yeah, it’s harsh. Sorry! I really try hard to find a nugget of value and there are some, surely, but the overriding detriment to society of pious ideology kills it for me. (See the brilliant Sam Harris book, “The End of Faith”.) If someone can tell me why blind faith, or regular faith, or decaf soy latte faith is good, I’ll listen and sincerely try to get it. It’s been said that the ability to choose between right and wrong sets us apart. What’s so great about that? Humans can choose to do evil and they do. Big deal. Who is to say that dogs don’t make the choice every day, but they chose compassion and loyalty over a base instinct. Sometimes dogs freak out and chomp some child’s leg off but since they normally don’t, does that prove that dogs are morally superior to humans?

    God’s “inspired metaphor” gave us Deuteronomy 13:7-11. I won’t reprint it – check it out. It directs you to kill your child, your brother, the wife you love, or your closest friend if they suggest worshipping other gods. How long will it take you to stone your child to death? Not to bring up the whole Islamic debate again, but isn’t that basically what the Islamic extremists say? It is death directed by religion - found right in the precious Christian bible. Oh, right. Good Christians are smarter than the Good Book and they leave that part out. I know I am not crazy. Christians are wearing the Emperor’s new clothes and nobody wants to embarrass them as they parade past naked.


    You look good in your studly black and brown fur though I might add.

    Why is it now important to not let people legislate based on whatever pie in the sky fantasy they want? The search for higher truth will not be completed in our lifetime anyway, so why make a fuss? Sam Harris makes some brilliant points. Good, respectable people give cover to the true nut jobs. Religion is a completely taboo topic of conversation in polite society because nobody wants to be a rude party pooper. Sam Harris says it best:

    “Religious moderation is the product of secular knowledge and spiritual ignorance,” and further, “By their light, religious moderation appears to be nothing more than an unwillingness to fully submit to God’s law. By failing to live by the letter of the texts, while tolerating the irrationality of those who do, religious moderates betray faith and reason equally. Unless the core dogmas of faith are called into question i.e., that we know there is a God, and that we know what he wants from us - religious moderation will do nothing to lead us out of the wilderness…the religious moderate is nothing more than a failed fundamentalist.” Sam Harris is God. Ha ha

    The beautiful thing for all you believers out there is that by throwing in your buggy whips, you can search for “a more sophisticated [approach] to spirituality, ethics, and the building of strong communities”. (Harris) We can all be open to each other’s ideas, no matter how bizarre they seem, but when it comes to laying the groundwork for future systems of social, political, and economic interaction on a small planet, use reason and leave your stones on the ground.

    This is the most fun I’ve had in years. I have dark circles under my eyes, my skin is dry, I don’t think I showered today – nice. Thanks a bunch and déjà vu?

     

  • At 4:20 AM, Blogger Infinitesimal said…

    decaf soy latte faith is the antichrist.

     

  • At 2:12 PM, Blogger sparringK9 said…

    /bark bark bark

    yeah! i hear you forest light! that post really makes me aware of all the ways i have been sloppy in my faith, and makes me want to stand for Christ in armour of shining light! when i am not under such pressure i hope to write you about it more fully, and with some good luck and GRACE, i can match your lovely case against what i hold dear. but vanille said it, milquetoast faith is for punks. and ive been one. its time for me to start flying right again.

    one thing for sure, i have no illusions about bringing you over to my way of being nor is that my mission. for now, i say i am glad you are "in here" with us. you've made me a better dog today. i remember what i am 'sposed to be.

    /grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

     

  • At 9:53 PM, Blogger light in the forest said…

    K9,
    I would love to be inspired. I trully will listen. If your God is willing, then I too will be enlightened and be a strong force for His name.

    Susie,
    IF there is a God and he is capable of forgiveness, why didn’t he just forgive Adam and Eve of their ‘sin’? Why make the rest of us suffer for their sins? He sacrificed his son for our sins, but evidently it’s just as hard to get into heaven now as it was then. And why is the Adam and Eve sin not covered in the 10 commandments? My bible doesn’t have curiosity as a sin. It doesn’t have disobeying the word of god as a sin, either. Deuteronomy 5:
    1. have no other gods (to give your money to) 2. don’t make idols of another god (borders on redundancy of #1) 3.don’t say stuff like God is bull, or God stinks 4. no shopping on Sunday (someone’s working there, right?) 5. Honor mommy and daddy 6. no murder (unless they’re heathens) 7. no adultery 8. no stealing 9. no lying 10. the clutch ending…drumroll please…hear it comes…don’t covet your neighbor’s stuff, especially his wife. (Wasn’t that covered in #7?) Think about it – the list is LAME!!!
    And anyway, God is the one that tempted Adam and Eve in the garden. If he wanted them to be mindless sheep, then he should have put the tree somewhere else! What kind of idiot-God would be able to create the universe and everything in it, and then mess it up so royally!! People, please. Spirituality is something to investigate. Do it while you burn your stupid Bible and don’t be a chicken to think that some boogey man is going to jump out from under your bed if you do it. There is so much that we should try to figure out. The world is not flat. Be curious, not afraid. What an idiot’s paradox to say that God is testing you by tempting you to waver from your stupid sheep-like qualities of believing on faith alone. If God wanted you to be a mindless sheep and just ‘believe on faith’, then he wouldn’t have put the tree of knowledge at your front door. AGAIN, if God wanted you to believe on faith and love of God alone, then there would be no point of revealing the tree of knowledge. Why did He put the tree there and tell you not to eat it? He didn’t. The book was written by crafty men who were trying to organize a rambunctious society. Noble goals for the times, but this is thousands of years later. It’s time for a more sophisticated spirituality.

     

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